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Slashdot; science vs pedagogy
NB: If we can be Slashdotted, maybe they can be Wikified. Anyway, Slashdot has an item from an AAAS conference; here some quotes:
I want "scientists" (here, the Pro-Science camp) to work with "journalists" (here, general editors, some of whom may have various aversions). We're not doing that right now. I think ScienceApologist (for example) would be completely on board with "avoid presenting uncertainties as a matter of balance" but might benefit from introspection regarding the "how the information is conveyed can matter more than it's content". Pete St.John (talk) 17:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
External links
I just removed two external links per WP:EL Links normally to be avoided. They were fairly obvious I believe. Another one is borderline so I am asking for comment if this one should be removed or not:
- Erowid - Belladonna Information (on recreational uses)
Ward20 (talk) 21:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe it is very important to leave the erowid link intact. It is a non-profit site that provides the only information on the web from people who have ingested this herb in order to trip ballz, to contact plant spirits for neoshamanic reasons, or who have incorporated it into a witch's flying ointment. It is the real deal and very much worth reading for people who are entertaining even the slightest notion of ingesting belladonna. I regularly point people to it.]
Added links to recreational and use in tea
I removed the citation needed twice under where it talks about recreational use and use in tea. I hope this is ok. --CrohnieGalTalk 17:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Toxicity section problems
While looking for sources I found a lot of material was plagiarized from here needs a rewrite. Ward20 (talk) 19:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Reading further, a lot of the article is lifted from this source. Ward20 (talk) 20:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Subsection significance, pertinence, relevance
Just for ease of editting I made this subsection.
Is folkloric use of belladonna relevant to belladonna? Yes. Yet those who have used belladonna in a folkloric way are a much tinier minority than those who use it homeopathically. Belladonna is a major homeopathic remedy that is widely sold. If allopathic remedies including belladonna are to be mentioned in an article about belladonna, then homeopathic uses (and if anyone wants to write them up, other modalities) should be included as well. This is not an allopathic encyclopedia. I should make clear that I don't even believe in homeopathy, but it is plain to me that if we are going to discuss belladonna's medicinal uses, then its use in homepathy should be included. Either that or remove all medicinal uses of belladonna from this article. I notice that for all the enormous wisdom about the allopathic uses of belladonna in this article, no one has felt the need to mention the widespread use of belladonna as a pain-killing plaster available over the counter in the US until the 1960s.]
Homeopathic use
Per the discussions here, there is much more agreement to include the homeopathic use then to not include it. Many more editors agree that the inclusion does not in anyway cause NPOV issues and the sources are more than adequate to establish prominence. Please stop removing against consensus. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
More noise and no substance. There is no argument. Homeopathic use of this plant is prohibitively minor in comparison to its other uses. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
At my local pharmacy, roughly 400 homeopathic remedies are offered including this one. I'm sure someone has used each one of them. That doesn't mean that we should be talking about homeopathic uses for all 400 of those substances at Wikipedia. Remember WP:ENC. WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Find a source which asserts the prominence of homeopathy to this plant. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Inability to provide a reliable source that asserts the prominence of homeopathy to this plant means we will continue to excise it from the article. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
How about WP:SOAP? Not to cast any aspersions on the actions or motivations of the editors urging inclusion (who are making valid though, to my reading, insufficient arguments), but it would seem that including this extremely minor use benefits homeopathy more than it benefits us or our readers. Our List of homeopathic preparations article is doing just fine without any need to funnel additional traffic that way. - Eldereft 13:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I have researched the subject thoroughly. There is exactly one reliable source about plants that mentions the homeopathic use of belladonna, and they do it in an anecdotal way. Therefore, since the anecdote is not relevant per its lack of prominence we are right in keeping it from the article. It simply doesn't belong there. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
clarifications
I've gone through and done some cleanup on the article (mostly error fixing and style stuff) but can someone check the following two lines? I think they need adjustment, but I'm not sure quite how...
- Atropa_belladonna#Medicine: last line in the third paragraph, beginning with The use of pharmaceutical.... I'm not sure what this line adds, or why it's necessary, and it strikes me as a little pushy.
- Atropa_belladonna#Folklore the current last line reads The aconitine in aconite was said to counter/reduce the toxic effects of belladonna, while combining their hallucinogenic effects. But this sounds like like a modern medical statement, whereas the paragraph is about witches flying. can it be rephrased to reflect what Middle Ages people would have said? --Ludwigs2 04:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Toxicity and medical uses
Belladonna leaves don't cause blisters on contact. Belladonna has been used against back pain together with red pepper capsicum extract in Germany, topically. Toxicity of leaves overstated. Atropine has in fact a very wide therapeutic margin, and fatal poisonings are exceedingly rare. The symptoms of poisoning are however extremely unpleasant and frightening. (Up to 30mg of Atropine are given with suspected nerve gas exposure, by auto-injector. The people are not really by themselves for the next 12 hours, but survive.) Pralidoxime is an antidote against organo-phosphate poisoning, not against atropine. It restores the blocked acetylcholinesterase. Here a few more facts: Belladonna extract has been used as a heart medicine traditionally. A standardized Belladonna root full alkaloid extract has been used against Parkinson's disease traditionally in Germany. (Part of an older pharmacopeia, I believe still in DAB6, in use until the 80s). Just found one was still used until 2003. A combination of Codeine, Belladonna, Aconite, Camphor was used in a cough syrup in the 70s in Germany. (not homeopathic, but in low doses.) The back pain patch ("ABC-Pflaster") I already mentioned. Today it only contains capsicum. Hope it helps to add valuable historical medical uses to the article. Naturopathic medicine has a rich tradition in Germany, but unfortunately now they copy the Americans. 70.137.153.69 (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Belladonnysat Buerger: (discontinued 2003) against parkinson's. http://www.epgonline.org/viewdrug.cfm/letter/B/language/lg0017/drugId/DR006823/drugName/Belladonnysat%C2%AE%20B%C3%BCrger The other ones (Cough syrup, back pain patch) to be found in old editions of the German "yellow list" Pralidoxime, Obidoxime as an antidote for nerve gas poisoning: See some emergency medicine website. I'll find for you. 70.137.153.69 (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Here is an article about "Homburg 680" (look in the long article for the key word), a naturopathic (not homeopathic) belladonna root whole extract. It contained a good dose of atropine, hyoscyamine, hyoscine, as found in belladonna
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