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Debate about the picture
A very simple solution to this naked woman picture debate
The essence of all the arguments against the Frua being placed there, critically, is due to the fact that some people personally do not want to see it there. I do not perceive the frau dissidents as wanting to prevent others from seeing the picture. We can satisfy both camps here. We can give people fair warning that there is a picture of a naked frua here; or we can simply dress up frau in clothes and declothe her when people click on her picture, if they want to see her naked. This is not censorship, because the naked frau is on wikipedia and is easily accessible to those who want to see it (by simply clicking on the frua and instantly declothing her) yet we can cater to those people who do not want the frau there, because she is naked etc. with a simple 'declothing option'
THis is just one solution i made up off the top of my head. In essence, the solution should give an option or warn people about the naked frau, and give them choice as to whether or not they want her naked. This would satisfy both camps, and would at the same time not censor wikipedia, because the naked frua would still be very accessible.
Lead picture status and history
I'm adding this section to help people keep track of the edit wars about the picture. I'm trying to address the "posession is 9 points of the law" issue - that is, it is very hard for the average editor to track the history of the which image is the lead on the page itself, and so whatever they see there when they load it seems appears to be the presumptive consensus. This keeps newcomers from understanding the real situation, and thus dooms the page to an eternal slow-grinding edit war between the partisans who, though we have good faith, are not getting anywhere (without prejudice, I'd include Nunh-huh, Haham hanuka, Kasreyn, and myself Homunq 20:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC) as the ones I've noticed, I'm sure there are others)
If this does not work, I will consider creating a template that simply contains whatever image is being used this week. I'd put a comment explaining how to edit the template in the wikitext of the page, and if someone removed the template I would say the right response would be to remove the image from the template and replace the template and . This would serve to create a separate edit history just for the image issue, on a page also subject to above-average vandalism and actual progress. --Homunq 20:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
So here's the good-faith history over the last 250 edits as I see it. If you change the image please note it here. Homunq claims that the following sentence should read "Changes to the lead photo which are not accompanied by some edit to the talk page under the same name (here or elsewhere) are subject to reversion." but be bold and edit it if you think you have a better standard.
Changes to the lead photo which are not accompanied by some edit to the talk page under the same name (here or elsewhere) are subject to reversion. Changes which are accompanied by a comment elsewhere should be noted here by their originator or the next person who comes along. This is not the place for argument (there's plenty of room just below), it's just a history so people can see how it got where it is.
Current status: Montage
- 07:59, 12 November 2006 Homunq (Talk | contribs) (adding montage for the 4th and last time)
- (cur) (last) 18:20, 10 November 2006 Jossi (Talk | contribs) (Motage is super ugly)
- (cur) (last) 20:41, 8 November 2006 Homunq (Talk | contribs) (Adding montage) | montage
- (cur) (last) 00:07, 3 November 2006 The pink panther (Talk | contribs) (if the mens article doesnt have a nkaed pic the womens article shouldnt) | No image
- (cur) (last) 15:38, 1 November 2006 24.240.64.126 (Talk) | Frau
- (cur) (last) 20:17, 21 October 2006 Nunh-huh (Talk | contribs) (no, that's not the concensus.) | No image
- (cur) (last) 19:44, 21 October 2006 Haham hanuka (Talk | contribs) (consensus reached on talkpage) | Frau
- (cur) (last) 17:17, 21 October 2006 Nunh-huh (Talk | contribs) (last good version) | No image
- (cur) (last) 13:18, 21 October 2006 Haham hanuka (Talk | contribs) (last good version) | frau
- (cur) (last) 19:11, 20 October 2006 The pink panther (Talk | contribs) (if we dont have a nude pic on the mens article we shouldnt on the womens article) | No image
- (cur) (last) 20:46, 16 October 2006 Haham hanuka (Talk | contribs) (originel image - per talkpage) | Frau
- (cur) (last) 09:36, 15 October 2006 Homunq (Talk | contribs) (Restoring image after Haham hanuka changed it with a false claim of "consensus". Please no offense Haham hanuka but if you revert please explain on talk page.) | Montage
- (cur) (last) 14:12, 14 October 2006 Haham hanuka (Talk | contribs) (restore photo - per consensus at talkpage) | Frau
- (cur) (last) 00:42, 11 October 2006 Homunq (Talk | contribs) (Changing photo. If you revert, please say why in the talk section "Until the issue is resolved...") | montage
- (cur) (last) 06:38, 10 October 2006 SuperJumbo (Talk | contribs) (Revert to revision 80473684 dated 2006-10-09 20:11:19 by Ck lostsword using popups) | Frau
- (cur) (last) 23:00, 9 October 2006 Cunado19 (Talk | contribs) (moving image to top) | Bather painting#
- (cur) (last) 12:12, 30 September 2006 Gwernol (Talk | contribs) m (Reverted edits by Konstable (talk) to last version by Wiki alf) | Frau
- (cur) (last) 12:08, 30 September 2006 Konstable (Talk | contribs) (moved image. wikipedia is not censored, but this is just ridiculous.) | No lead image
Status as of sep 2006, 250 edits ago as I write: frau
Better picture
There's no actual real photograph on this page that shows a woman. We have a drawing of one, but that's kind of, uh, pointless. We need to do what the SETI people did and put these silly human body shame issues to rest and find the most representative photograph we can find, and use it. --Cyde Weys 06:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Ha! What exactly is the most representative? There is so much variation that any "representative" photograph is likely to be biased or, even worse, more representative of a particular race or ethnic group.
Just a note on the "Apollo" image (Image:Human-woman.png): it is not from the Apollo missions, but from the Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 space probes to Jupiter and Saturn, the first two man-made objects to leave the Solar System. The woman and man were drawn to be as pan-racial as possible and according to the conventions of classic Greek sculpture. Also, since the probes were publicly funded. they could not fly in the face of American mores of the time (the early 1970s). -- Stefano KALB 01:51, 16 Jul 2006 (UTC)
Photo
The German, the Spanish and the Dutch Wiki's have this pic as a main one. Also in the article man we have a nude photo. We can found a better nude photo, but It seems the best right now --Haham hanuka 17:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I think we should put her at the top, but not the current image (Frau-2.jpg), a different photo:
An encyclopædia should also be able to give the browser their first ever introduction to something new. These are my opinions based on this.
I reckon a lot of people want to put a fat, ugly mature woman as the main picture because they're scared of being accused of stereotyping/putting pressure on women/trying to please men's sexual desires/idealistic. Why not put a really beautiful woman as the main picture? This encyclopædia's entry for 'flower' has several really beautiful, striking flowers at the top, and the entry for Peacock/Peafowl is of the male of the species showing off its amazing tail-feathers, not of the dull brown female.
In my opinion:
- The picture at the top should be a naked woman, the most clear way to depict the difference between the male and female of our species. The genitals should ideally be more visible (this does help if the area is shaved, even though this is a habitual modification) but not a close-up or pose that could be classified obscene, though this is a very subjective matter I know.
I don't think we should use a nude woman. There are some people that I see using Wikipedia that are younger than the appropriate viewing age for that picture. I agree with a woman in a bikini, but not this.
A clothed person might be used under the 'human being' entry but serves little purpose here, especially in this day and age when clothed men and women sometimes look very similar, and considering cultural differences in clothing.
- Should be a photograph, not a drawing or diagram as just like every other entry in the encyclopædia of anything with visible mass this is the most accurate and easiest to understand.
- Should be a young woman, at the peak of fertility (eg. aged 18-30). Older woman have beauty in their own right, but most people in the world, regardless of culture, find her most attractive at a young age, thus the most famous artists have depicted her since the beginning.
+ Should be a fit and healthy woman, NOT like the one in the current photograph (Frau-2.jpg).
-A fit and healthy woman will
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